More Vietnam-Era Spitting Stories (from Library Database Research Jerry Lembcke Has Chosen to Ignore)
UPDATE, 10:00 AM: A new Bellwether post from Bill Sloat — “Scientists Say It Happened,” with reference to a Fact Sheet in one narrow area of vet treatment.
UPDATE 2, 11:00 AM: Since many of the items below are letters to the editor, it should be noted that many newspapers, in the course of making their decisions as to what letter or two to publish in the limited space available, tend not to use a letter unless it is representative of a batch of others making the same or similar points.
UPDATE 3, 11:55 AM: An e-mailer wishing to remain anonymous writes:
….. Here is what I know having been raised on a military base ….. Vets coming home from Vietnam service were treated very poorly and some were indeed spat upon and cursed at. Emotions can overcome people who feel strongly about something, but such action cannot be condoned.
….. It probably helps that I spent time at West Point and fully understand the terms duty, honor, country ….. I was told stories of spitting happening and have no reason not to believe them. This crusade against these stories is beyond me.
Me too.
___________________________________
Jerry Lembcke and his acolytes insist that the accounts of Vietnam-era veterans being spat upon must be contemporaneous or they somehow “don’t count,” so I suppose there’s no persuading them.
But for those who are actually entertaining the notion that their belief that the spitting either didn’t or very rarely happened, yours truly took a trip through the library’s ProQuest database and found the following (links are to ProQuest URLs and won’t work unless you have access to the database). This just adds to the “must be lying” lists compiled or referred to in previous posts (here, here, and here).
It should also be noted that toward the end of this series of references (which, by the way, appears to only scratch the surface of readily available testimonials and references), that Lembcke has over the years received many direct responses and challenges from individuals in reaction to columns he has written in various places. Did Lembcke ever attempt to contact these gentlemen to verify or debunk them? Or is he so determined to hang on to his alternate reality that he won’t let the small matter of seemingly endless testimonials impinge upon it?
Some of what I found in searches of the Proquest Database on “Vietnam AND spit” (not in quotes) and “Vietnam AND spat” (not in quotes) follows (click on “more” if you are on the home page):
Norfolk Virginian-Pilot; July 20, 1994 — in what appears to have been an op-ed by Patrick Brodeur:
My fellow chief petty officers have all been down the road today’s sailors are traveling. We took the good and the bad. When we signed up, we knew what we were in for. At the worst possible time in U.S. history, we went in the service on a volunteer basis. We were called “baby killers,” “war mongers.” We were spit on, and all kind of objects were thrown at us. But we stuck it out for the duration. You have to decide what your duration is. Whether it be four years or 30 years, it’s your choice.
Los Angeles Times; August 31, 1993 — in an article by Mimi Ko (”Countywide A Reunion to Distance the ‘Shame’”)
“Many Vietnam veterans have a lot of problems because they’ve had to put up a wall covering their shame because we were spit on and constantly told we were losers and failures in society,” he said. “The reunion helps us come out of hiding and say, `Hey, I’m a Vietnam vet and I’m proud of it.’ It’s time the Vietnam veterans get some respect.”
New York Times; July 16, 1981 — in an article by Douglas Martin (”Iowa Vietnam Veterans Organizing to Reach Their Goals”):
At the end of Main Street on the lakeshore, a flagpole honors the only local youth killed in Vietnam, John H. Wrisberg 3d, who died Jan. 16, 1968. Those who lived feel that they do not receive any fraction of that gratitude. “You just don’t tell people you’re a Vietnam veteran,” Mr. Janssen said. “They might spit at you, and I guarantee they won’t say thank you.”
Florida Sun-Sentinel; November 13, 1990 — an Associated Press report by George Yakstis (”Vets Say Public Support for Gulf War is a Nice Change”):
IN EASTERN SAUDI ARABIA — When Sgt. George Yakstis came home from Vietnam nearly 20 years ago, people spit and called him a “baby killer.” He said he quickly realized that not all his enemies were in Southeast Asia.
Cleveland Plain Dealer; June 14, 1992 — a report by John Mangels (”Veterans grateful for patriotic parade”):
Montville Township’s Dave Longstreth remembers walking through the San Francisco airport in his dress-green Marine corporal’s uniform, returning from infantry duty in Vietnam’s demilitarized zone, and how it felt when a man stepped up and spit on the combat ribbons on his the left side of his chest.
“There’s not a day that goes by that you don’t deal with it,” Longstreth, a veterans employment representative for the Ohio Bureau of Employment Services, said of his time in Vietnam.
Northwest Florida Daily News; November 12, 1991 — in a story by Jeff Newell and Dave Wehlermann (”Gulf vets grateful for welcome”)
Dave Wehlermann will never forget the homecoming his older brother received in 1970 when his brother, a Marine, returned from Vietnam.
“I was only in the second grade, and my parents took me with them to the airport in St. Louis,” said Wehlermann, now a 29-year-old Air Force staff sergeant with the 835th Red Horse civil engineering squadron at Hurlburt Field. “There were protesters at the airport who spit on him when he got off the plane. It really hacked him off.”
The Morning Call (Allentown, PA); July 5, 1991 — in a letter to the editor from John Michael Taras:
Damn this country! Damn this country! Damn this country! Why, after spending 15 months in a country where death is as commonplace as an auto accident here, did you spit upon my uniform? A uniform which represented a country I was prepared to give my life for.
Minneapolis Star Tribune; January 26, 1991 — in a story from Saudi Arabia (”U.S. troops say they dislike war protests at home”):
On the roof of his armored vehicle, Cpl. Jonathan Lueck read a copy of Star & Stripes propped against his machine gun. “There’s more stuff about protesters in here,” he called down. “They’re only a minority, but they make a lot of noise. I don’t want to go home and get spit on like my relatives in Vietnam.”
Madison Capital Times, January 29, 1996 — in an unbylined story (”Famed Vietnam DJ Rips Vets’ Treatment”):
“When we came home, we never thought we’d be spit upon by our fellow Americans,” Adrian Cronauer said. “Usually when veterans from Vietnam greet each other, they say, ‘Welcome home.’
Cronauer, portrayed by Robin Williams in “Good Morning Vietnam,” appeared here Saturday at a banquet of the Fox Valley Chapter of Wisconsin Vietnam Veterans.
Denver Post; July 21, 1995 — in a story by Maureen Harrington (”Vietnam conference ignites passion”):
In 1970, when Sgt. Terry Anderson returned from Vietnam and became a Marine recruiter, college students spat and shouted at him.
Anderson, now a businessman, was at DU to promote reconciliation with Vietnam, part of his own crusade for normalized relations with Vietnam. He spoke with great feeling about “forgiveness” and the need to “remember the past and look forward to the future.”
Los Angeles Times; July 14, 1998 — two direct responses to a previous Lembcke article (”Vietnam War Recollections Linger Painfully”)
Re “War Stories” (July 3): I was not surprised to read the declaration of Holy Cross University sociologist Jerry Lembcke that he found no documentation of Vietnam veterans being spat upon. Instead, he opines, this is a myth created to deflect from our being defeated by a “small, undeveloped nation” (not by the well-armed Viet Cong).
Coincidentally, a TV program hosted by Stone Phillips aired two days after the “War Stories” article with a segment on Vietnam veterans, and one of the veterans interviewed reveals how he was spat upon by antiwar demonstrators. Couldn’t Lembcke have also ferreted out a vet who was exposed to such hateful conduct? Shouldn’t investigative reporting be more thorough than to rely solely on accounts of the ’60s and ’70s when media focused on anti-America rhetoric?
JOSEPHINE BOTELLO GARCIA, Rosemead
I can take Jerry Lembcke to the exact spot in San Francisco, where I stood, in uniform, on the northwest corner of 9th and Market at 2:30 p.m. May 3, 1967, and someone spat in my face. Whether he was an antiwar demonstrator or just someone who was angry at the world mattered little to a 20-year-old kid who had just returned from Vietnam.
Why was he unable to verify a factual occurrence of such an incident? Maybe he didn’t look in the right places. The majority of vets who came home kept their mouths shut and didn’t make a big deal about the war. We just wanted to get on with our lives. We didn’t start the war and sure as hell didn’t have anything to do with ending it.
….. The war left scars. One would have to be void of feelings to say otherwise. Just recently, after 30 years, I have started to discuss the experience, and that took the urging from the person who means more to me than anyone. That is probably what prompted me to respond to the article in the paper. Not to do so would be irresponsible. It would invalidate the magnitude of the experience of having someone spit in your face.
GARY KIRK, Marina del Rey
Worcester Telegram and Gazette; September 16, 1998; in a story by James Dempsey covering the response to a Lembcke piece in the paper a week earlier (”Veterans remember the disdain; Harsh homecoming was as offensive as spitting”):
….. Some veterans insist that the spitting incidents took place, even if they cannot be documented. Don Jeffrey of Webster writes a letter about returning from service in the Marines in 1969 and being met in San Francisco by a “well organized welcoming committee of anti-war civilians who taunted, jeered, threw insults (and) rotten fruit, and even spat at returning combat troops.”
….. Johnston Glass of Worcester ….. isn’t surprised that Lembcke didn’t find evidence. “I don’t believe anyone would file complaints unless there was a fight involved,” he said.
Newsday; May 9, 2000 — in a letter to the editor, in response to a Lembcke piece from May 1:
Jerry Lembcke is the one indulging in fantasy in his article “Vietnam: Memory, Amnesia and Fantasy” [Viewpoints, May 1]. I can assure him that, while I was passing through Pennsylvania Station on my way home from Vietnam in 1968, I was indeed spat upon by a young woman. She also called me a “baby killer.” Urban myth, Mr. Lembcke?
James H. Reed
North Babylon
So many spitting incidents, so many assaults. Yet no soldier filed a police report? No party took a swing at the other, resulting in a police report and subsequent legal action? The absence of legitmate documentation is conspicuous by its absence.
The bane of accurate data collection and accurate news gathering is anecdotal reports. Many may claim to have been abducted by aliens or spotted the Loch Ness monster. Those reports may even make it into print or onto a broadcast. That doesn’t mean they really happened.
Across the political spectrum, bloggers often share one complaint - poor reporting by the popular media. Were the above anecdote’s verified or did the reporters simply take dictation? We don’t know because Bizzy apparently hasn’t made any attempt to verify them. (By the way, all of Bizzy’s above examples are post-1980, which is in keeping with Prof. Lembcke’s theory that the spitting stories began popping up during the Reagan years.)
In addition to contacting the individuals in the above reports and interviewing them himself, Bizzy could present the above cases to Prof. Lembcke for comment. But that’s the other problem in this unfolding story by alleged journalists. Neither Bizzy nor Bill Sloat, who has published several critical articles about Prof. Lembcke - appear to have made the obvious move - contact Prof. Lembcke and review the information with him. I suspect they fear the consequences - especially career reporter Bill Sloat, who has much to lose if his claim of having been spit upon is fabricated.
Comment by Dubious George — February 6, 2007 @ 9:50 am
#1, Dubious George — I don’t carry the burden of proof. Jerry Lembcke, who from all appearances has ignored these reports for nearly a decade (or perhaps even worse, chosen to disregard them after actually following up) obviously (except I guess to you) has the burden of proof, i.e., it’s up to HIM to refute the throng, one by one by one by one.
FWIW, I’ve actually had a form of verification come to me in comment #4 at one of the earlier posts, where a DIFFERENT featured Holy Cross alum (Del Vecchio) other that the two in the magazine who so matter-of-factly reported being spat on (MacDougald and Bowen) weighed in.
Sloat just this morning looked at some of what the VA has done, and (of course) found material legitimizing the claims.
There’s a point at which this should extremely embarrassing to the holdouts. We’re well past that point. “I was wrong, I am sorries” are way overdue.
Comment by TBlumer — February 6, 2007 @ 10:21 am
Jerry Lembcke, who from all appearances has ignored these reports for nearly a decade
“From all appearances” suggests you’ve read Prof. Lembcke’s book in order to learn whether he addressed these issues. Have you?
Comment by Dubious George — February 6, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
#3, George, you have a short memory. I don’t carry the burden of proof. If Lembcke had specific debunks, it would be safe to assume that at some point he would get them into his mag and news articles. I haven’t seen them.
Besides, the inventory of what he needs to debunk has gone up exponentially in the past 10 days or so. So HE is the one with a lot of work to do, NOT me.
Comment by TBlumer — February 6, 2007 @ 2:34 pm
In other words, you haven’t read Lembcke’s book.
Comment by Dubious George — February 6, 2007 @ 6:58 pm
Earth to George: I’ll read Lembcke’s book when he works through his ever-growing backlog of spitting claimants. I anticipate that it won’t be any time soon.
Comment by TBlumer — February 6, 2007 @ 11:29 pm
You’ve stated you have not read Jerry’s Lembcke’s book, but you have reached firm conclusions about his work.
In a recent related post, you based your position on Bob Greene’s book. Have you read Greene’s book?
Comment by Dubious George — February 7, 2007 @ 6:03 pm
#7, I read Greene’s contemperaneous columns about what was in the book at the time of the book. That suffices.
Again, you don’t get it. LEMBCKE is the one with a lot of work to do, no matter what his book says, because of all of the new claims that have surfaced regardless of whether he debunked all previous claims (itself highly doubtful, based on the litany of responses to his prior published articles).
If you have nothing more constructive to say except to attempt to question my justification for having an opinion, which is about the weakest line of argument one can concoct in the circumstances, you’ll do everyone a favor by going away — especially yourself, because you’re proving yourself to be as empty as they come, and you, like Lembcke and his acolytes, are embarrassing themselves.
Comment by TBlumer — February 7, 2007 @ 6:11 pm
Supplemental earth to George note:
The three full published articles I have read by Lembcke are sufficient for learning of his claims and conclusions.
The skewering Lembcke claims and conclusions received at the hands of Jim Lindgren at Volokh on Thursday (with more to come) are, as I suspected they would be when investigated by someone else, sufficient to repudiate both the claims and the conclusions, and eliminate the need for a time-wasting read of Lembcke’s book (link is to my post, which expands a bit on one aspect of what Lindgren did and found):
http://bizzyblog.com/?p=4551
This is a real win/win — I don’t waste my time reading a book that’s a pack of lies, and you lose all validity any criticism attempted oriented around the fact that I didn’t read it might have had. Isn’t it neat how that works? :–>
It also eliminates the need to embarrass you further by posting your most recent comment, so I won’t do that either. You benefit twice. Who said I’m not generous?
Comment by TBlumer — February 9, 2007 @ 7:15 pm
Apparently, Lembcke didn’t waste time looking through news archives. If he had, he too could have found what this lady that posts over on the Swift Vets forum discovered, news articles from the late 60s and early 70s mentioning returning Vets being spit on.
Jpg copies of 12 articles are located on page 2; Spitting on Vets a Myth?
Comment by Lew Waters — February 28, 2007 @ 9:47 pm
#10, another update is coming soon.
Comment by TBlumer — March 1, 2007 @ 7:38 am