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	<title>Comments on: More Vietnam-Era Spitting Stories (from Library Database Research Jerry Lembcke Has Chosen to Ignore)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/</link>
	<description>The Business End of the Blogosphere</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: TBlumer</title>
		<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-108918</link>
		<dc:creator>TBlumer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-108918</guid>
		<description>#10, another update is coming soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#10, another update is coming soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Lew Waters</title>
		<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-108841</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew Waters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Mar 2007 02:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-108841</guid>
		<description>Apparently, Lembcke didn't waste time looking through news archives. If he had, he too could have found what this lady that posts over on the Swift Vets forum discovered, news articles from the late 60s and early 70s mentioning returning Vets being spit on.

Jpg copies of 12 articles are located on page 2; &lt;a HREF="http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20976" rel="nofollow"&gt;Spitting on Vets a Myth?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently, Lembcke didn&#8217;t waste time looking through news archives. If he had, he too could have found what this lady that posts over on the Swift Vets forum discovered, news articles from the late 60s and early 70s mentioning returning Vets being spit on.</p>
<p>Jpg copies of 12 articles are located on page 2; <a HREF="http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20976" rel="nofollow">Spitting on Vets a Myth?</a></p>
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		<title>By: TBlumer</title>
		<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-96658</link>
		<dc:creator>TBlumer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-96658</guid>
		<description>Supplemental earth to George note:

The three full published articles I have read by Lembcke are sufficient for learning of his claims and conclusions.

The skewering Lembcke claims and conclusions received at the hands of Jim Lindgren at Volokh on Thursday (with more to come) are, as I suspected they would be when investigated by someone else, sufficient to repudiate both the claims and the conclusions, and eliminate the need for a time-wasting read of Lembcke's book (link is to my post, which expands a bit on one aspect of what Lindgren did and found):

http://bizzyblog.com/?p=4551

This is a real win/win -- I don't waste my time reading a book that's a pack of lies, and you lose all validity any criticism attempted oriented around the fact that I didn't read it might have had. Isn't it neat how that works? :--&gt;

It also eliminates the need to embarrass you further by posting your most recent comment, so I won't do that either. You benefit twice. Who said I'm not generous?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Supplemental earth to George note:</p>
<p>The three full published articles I have read by Lembcke are sufficient for learning of his claims and conclusions.</p>
<p>The skewering Lembcke claims and conclusions received at the hands of Jim Lindgren at Volokh on Thursday (with more to come) are, as I suspected they would be when investigated by someone else, sufficient to repudiate both the claims and the conclusions, and eliminate the need for a time-wasting read of Lembcke&#8217;s book (link is to my post, which expands a bit on one aspect of what Lindgren did and found):</p>
<p><a href="http://bizzyblog.com/?p=4551" rel="nofollow">http://bizzyblog.com/?p=4551</a></p>
<p>This is a real win/win &#8212; I don&#8217;t waste my time reading a book that&#8217;s a pack of lies, and you lose all validity any criticism attempted oriented around the fact that I didn&#8217;t read it might have had. Isn&#8217;t it neat how that works? :&#8211;></p>
<p>It also eliminates the need to embarrass you further by posting your most recent comment, so I won&#8217;t do that either. You benefit twice. Who said I&#8217;m not generous?</p>
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		<title>By: TBlumer</title>
		<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95685</link>
		<dc:creator>TBlumer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 23:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95685</guid>
		<description>#7, I read Greene's contemperaneous columns about what was in the book at the time of the book. That suffices.

Again, you don't get it. LEMBCKE is the one with a lot of work to do, no matter what his book says, because of all of the new claims that have surfaced regardless of whether he debunked all previous claims (itself highly doubtful, based on the litany of responses to his prior published articles).

If you have nothing more constructive to say except to attempt to question my justification for having an opinion, which is about the weakest line of argument one can concoct in the circumstances, you'll do everyone  a favor by going away -- especially yourself, because you're proving yourself to be as empty as they come, and you, like Lembcke and his acolytes, are embarrassing themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#7, I read Greene&#8217;s contemperaneous columns about what was in the book at the time of the book. That suffices.</p>
<p>Again, you don&#8217;t get it. LEMBCKE is the one with a lot of work to do, no matter what his book says, because of all of the new claims that have surfaced regardless of whether he debunked all previous claims (itself highly doubtful, based on the litany of responses to his prior published articles).</p>
<p>If you have nothing more constructive to say except to attempt to question my justification for having an opinion, which is about the weakest line of argument one can concoct in the circumstances, you&#8217;ll do everyone  a favor by going away &#8212; especially yourself, because you&#8217;re proving yourself to be as empty as they come, and you, like Lembcke and his acolytes, are embarrassing themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Dubious George</title>
		<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95681</link>
		<dc:creator>Dubious George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 23:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95681</guid>
		<description>You've stated you have not read Jerry's Lembcke's book, but you have reached firm conclusions about his work.

In a recent related post, you based your position on Bob Greene's book. Have you read Greene's book?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve stated you have not read Jerry&#8217;s Lembcke&#8217;s book, but you have reached firm conclusions about his work.</p>
<p>In a recent related post, you based your position on Bob Greene&#8217;s book. Have you read Greene&#8217;s book?</p>
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		<title>By: TBlumer</title>
		<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95276</link>
		<dc:creator>TBlumer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 04:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95276</guid>
		<description>Earth to George: I'll read Lembcke's book when he works through his ever-growing backlog of spitting claimants. I anticipate that it won't be any time soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Earth to George: I&#8217;ll read Lembcke&#8217;s book when he works through his ever-growing backlog of spitting claimants. I anticipate that it won&#8217;t be any time soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Dubious George</title>
		<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95201</link>
		<dc:creator>Dubious George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 23:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95201</guid>
		<description>In other words, you haven't read Lembcke's book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In other words, you haven&#8217;t read Lembcke&#8217;s book.</p>
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		<title>By: TBlumer</title>
		<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95119</link>
		<dc:creator>TBlumer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95119</guid>
		<description>#3, George, you have a short memory. I don't carry the burden of proof. If Lembcke had specific debunks, it would be safe to assume that at some point he would get them into his mag and news articles. I haven't seen them.

Besides, the inventory of what he needs to debunk has gone up exponentially in the past 10 days or so. So HE is the one with a lot of work to do, NOT me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#3, George, you have a short memory. I don&#8217;t carry the burden of proof. If Lembcke had specific debunks, it would be safe to assume that at some point he would get them into his mag and news articles. I haven&#8217;t seen them.</p>
<p>Besides, the inventory of what he needs to debunk has gone up exponentially in the past 10 days or so. So HE is the one with a lot of work to do, NOT me.</p>
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		<title>By: Dubious George</title>
		<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95106</link>
		<dc:creator>Dubious George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95106</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Jerry Lembcke, who from all appearances has ignored these reports for nearly a decade&lt;/i&gt;

"From all appearances" suggests you've read Prof. Lembcke's book in order to learn whether he addressed these issues. Have you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Jerry Lembcke, who from all appearances has ignored these reports for nearly a decade</i></p>
<p>&#8220;From all appearances&#8221; suggests you&#8217;ve read Prof. Lembcke&#8217;s book in order to learn whether he addressed these issues. Have you?</p>
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		<title>By: TBlumer</title>
		<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95029</link>
		<dc:creator>TBlumer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95029</guid>
		<description>#1, Dubious George -- I don't carry the burden of proof. Jerry Lembcke, who from all appearances has ignored these reports for nearly a decade (or perhaps even worse, chosen to disregard them after actually following up) obviously (except I guess to you) has the burden of proof, i.e., it's up to HIM to refute the throng, one by one by one by one.

FWIW, I've actually had a form of verification come to me in comment #4 at one of the earlier posts, where a DIFFERENT featured Holy Cross alum (Del Vecchio) other that the two in the magazine who so matter-of-factly reported being spat on (MacDougald and Bowen) weighed in.

Sloat just this morning looked at some of what the VA has done, and (of course) found material legitimizing the claims.

There's a point at which this should extremely embarrassing to the holdouts. We're well past that point. "I was wrong, I am sorries" are way overdue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#1, Dubious George &#8212; I don&#8217;t carry the burden of proof. Jerry Lembcke, who from all appearances has ignored these reports for nearly a decade (or perhaps even worse, chosen to disregard them after actually following up) obviously (except I guess to you) has the burden of proof, i.e., it&#8217;s up to HIM to refute the throng, one by one by one by one.</p>
<p>FWIW, I&#8217;ve actually had a form of verification come to me in comment #4 at one of the earlier posts, where a DIFFERENT featured Holy Cross alum (Del Vecchio) other that the two in the magazine who so matter-of-factly reported being spat on (MacDougald and Bowen) weighed in.</p>
<p>Sloat just this morning looked at some of what the VA has done, and (of course) found material legitimizing the claims.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a point at which this should extremely embarrassing to the holdouts. We&#8217;re well past that point. &#8220;I was wrong, I am sorries&#8221; are way overdue.</p>
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		<title>By: Dubious George</title>
		<link>http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95013</link>
		<dc:creator>Dubious George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bizzyblog.com/2007/02/06/more-vietnam-era-spitting-stories-that-the-holdouts-will-ignore/#comment-95013</guid>
		<description>So many spitting incidents, so many assaults. Yet no soldier filed a police report? No party took a swing at the other, resulting in a police report and subsequent legal action? The absence of legitmate documentation is conspicuous by its absence.

The bane of accurate data collection and accurate news gathering is anecdotal reports. Many may claim to have been abducted by aliens or spotted the Loch Ness monster. Those reports may even make it into print or onto a broadcast. That doesn't mean they really happened.

Across the political spectrum, bloggers often share one complaint - poor reporting by the popular media. Were the above anecdote's verified or did the reporters simply take dictation? We don't know because Bizzy apparently hasn't made any attempt to verify them. (By the way, all of Bizzy's above examples are post-1980, which is in keeping with Prof. Lembcke's theory that the spitting stories began popping up during the Reagan years.) 

In addition to contacting the individuals in the above reports and interviewing them himself, Bizzy could present the above cases to Prof. Lembcke for comment. But that's the other problem in this unfolding story by alleged journalists. Neither Bizzy nor Bill Sloat, who has published several critical articles about Prof. Lembcke - appear to have made the obvious move - contact Prof. Lembcke and review the information with him. I suspect they fear the consequences - especially career reporter Bill Sloat, who has much to lose if his claim of having been spit upon is fabricated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So many spitting incidents, so many assaults. Yet no soldier filed a police report? No party took a swing at the other, resulting in a police report and subsequent legal action? The absence of legitmate documentation is conspicuous by its absence.</p>
<p>The bane of accurate data collection and accurate news gathering is anecdotal reports. Many may claim to have been abducted by aliens or spotted the Loch Ness monster. Those reports may even make it into print or onto a broadcast. That doesn&#8217;t mean they really happened.</p>
<p>Across the political spectrum, bloggers often share one complaint - poor reporting by the popular media. Were the above anecdote&#8217;s verified or did the reporters simply take dictation? We don&#8217;t know because Bizzy apparently hasn&#8217;t made any attempt to verify them. (By the way, all of Bizzy&#8217;s above examples are post-1980, which is in keeping with Prof. Lembcke&#8217;s theory that the spitting stories began popping up during the Reagan years.) </p>
<p>In addition to contacting the individuals in the above reports and interviewing them himself, Bizzy could present the above cases to Prof. Lembcke for comment. But that&#8217;s the other problem in this unfolding story by alleged journalists. Neither Bizzy nor Bill Sloat, who has published several critical articles about Prof. Lembcke - appear to have made the obvious move - contact Prof. Lembcke and review the information with him. I suspect they fear the consequences - especially career reporter Bill Sloat, who has much to lose if his claim of having been spit upon is fabricated.</p>
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