The Case Against Mitt Romney: His Risky Associations and Entanglements
This is the third of four posts covering:
- What Mitt Romney did to Massachusetts while he was Bay State governor.
- What he did to the nation while he was governor.
- (THIS POST) His risky associations and entanglements. This one has a “surprise.”
- What he did to the nation, the Republican Party, and John McCain during his GOP primary run.
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MITT ROMNEY’S, HIS FAMILY’S, AND HIS “OLD” FIRM’S UNSAVORY, AND POSSIBLY DANGEROUS, ENTANGLEMENTS
Overview: The bottom-line question that leaps from this post is this –
Why in the world would John McCain even consider risking his one remaining shot at the highest office in the land by associating himself with any part of what you are about to see and read?
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Let’s start with a video blast from a past post.
It comes from a lefty called “DemRapidReponse,” which is good news and bad news. The good news is that what is presented is mostly, but not entirely, accurate. The bad news is that it’s a sneak preview of the kind of thing the opposition will pound on if John McCain selects Mitt Romney as his running mate. The damage that could arise from the information in this video, combined with Romney’s Personal Financial Disclosure Form, combined with other things I have learned, is hard to underestimate.
The vid doesn’t do a good enough job of distinguishing between Mitt Romney, Bain Capital, and the supposed distance between them. But viewers will get the point.
I know that Romney claims that most of his assets are in a “blind trust,” and that he has satisfied a Massachusetts ethics body over its propriety.
But, as I said back in January, the distance from Romney to Bain and other questionable entities isn’t as far as one might expect, and for being “blind,” an awful lot is pretty visible:
- For one thing, the New York Times has noted that Romney “remains an investor in Bain Capital.” Romney’s no-longer-available GOP primary web site did not disclose that. His bio, when it was there, left readers with the impression that he is not currently involved with Bain in any way.
- The Personal Financial Disclosure form filled out by Romney in August (accessible here; the file itself is a 40-plus page PDF) confirms that Mitt Romney and his wife have substantial ownership interests in various Bain entities.
- The amount of those interests may be understated or obscured because the Form’s preparers appear to have failed to follow some of the specific instructions for completing the Form. I believe that a reader will likely come away from the Disclosure form estimating a valuation of ownership interests that could be tens of millions of dollars lower than it really is.
- Even beyond Bain, the Disclosure Form reveals that Romney and/or his family also have and/or recently had and disposed of likely-substantial investments in the Russian and Chinese entities mentioned in the video.
- (Not noted in video) Certain of the entities Romney and Bain are involved with were implicated in the Oil for Food Scandal. Really: “There were two main types of manipulation: surcharges paid for humanitarian contracts for spare parts, trucks, medical equipment and other supplies; and kickbacks for oil contracts. Among the companies that paid illegal surcharges were South Korea’s Daewoo International and three subsidiaries of Siemens AG of Germany. On the oil side, contractors listed included Texas-based Bayoil and Coastal Corp., Russian oil giant Gazprom, and Lukoil Asia Pacific, a subsidiary of the Russian company, Lukoil.” You will see the names of Gazprom and Lukoil in the video.
Geez, the vid’s only 2:37, so let’s roll it already (direct YouTube link, in case the embed doesn’t work):
(NOTE: CNOOC and Sinopec are Chinese oil companies.)
So while the video is less than perfect (it’s also dated, as we now know that Romney “lent” and is now going to eat $45 million of his own money, not the $9 mil noted in the vid, that he put into his campaign), it is sufficiently valid to raise questions about:
- Romney’s sincerity about Iranian divestment, given his direct and indirect personal interests.
- The complete nature of Bain’s and Romney’s Russian and Chinese investments and entanglements, especially given the state-sponsored or state-sanctioned nature of many of their companies, and the current and potential relationship between the Russian oil firms noted and the Russian government.
- Whether Mitt Romney will ultimately represent this country’s interests, his own interests, those of another country or countries, or some combination of the three if he enters the halls of presidential power. Seriously. I’m not the only one raising security-related questions; GOP presidential candidate Duncan Hunter raised similar concerns about yet another Chinese investment during the primary.
- Finally, whether all of this will be fatal to John McCain’s general election candidacy.
What has been covered here only scratches the surface. When all is said and done, the business dealings and entanglements of the Romneys and Bain may end up constituting the most troubling aspect of all about this man’s presence on a presidential ticket.
And given what was noted in the first two posts in this four-part series, that’s saying something.
But there’s more.
Back on January 17, I wrote the following (last item at link), and got some heat for it:
By the way, I predict that if Romney is the nominee, there will be a concerted effort by Old Media to get to the bottom of what appears, based on this simple Google search on “Mormons and ‘child abuse’” and other information I have learned, to be a serious child-abuse problem that exists in the Mormon Church and segments of the Mormon community.
Since a Republican is involved, I predict that Old Media will do a thorough job.
I further predict that if they do that thorough job, they will find a lot to write about.
I finally predict that they will get to within, excuse the expression, close enough striking distance of Mitt Romney’s circle of friends and acquaintances to have an impact on his prospects, and that the impact will not be favorable.
I stand by that prediction, applicable now to a McCain-Romney ticket if Romney is selected as John McCain’s running mate. In fact, I am more confident about that prediction now than I was six months ago.
I also now have some confidence that if Old Media does the thorough job I expect it will, it will find questionable and perhaps corrupt business and political arrangements and practices in Michigan that will get close enough to Mitt Romney’s circle of friends and acquaintances to have an impact on a McCain-Romney ticket, and that the impact will not be favorable.
Now for the “surprise.” Let’s watch a second video.
It’s from John McCain’s January 13, 2008 town hall appearance in Howell, Michigan, which is located in Livingston County. It was carried live on CNN:
Here’s a transcript of the relevant portion of that vid in case it disappears from YouTube (I have, however, saved it in a different format):
Questioner: Senator McCain, I have all due respect for you, and the service that you did for our country.
McCain: I’m always afraid of that preface.
Q: My question is coming from my son, who at this time feels hostage in our home, and we may want to have the McCriries and Gaddises (well-known political figures in Livingston County, MI — Ed.) come in on this question, from this very young man who has literally been terrorized for years in this county. My name is Deborah McCord Skousen, and in 1997 I was put on trial under a false police report taken by Susan Gaddis. Later on, a deal was struck with my former husband and the McCriries to sell my home in a divorce agreement. I’m going to tell now what was –
McCain: You’re going to have to ask me a question.
Q: I will ask a question. But my kids have been terrorized and I. When you spoke about Mr. Romney, it might be wise to look into his investments, particularly into Gazprom and Lukoil, and you will notice that there is a company out of Pontiac by the name of Kairos International, which handled –
McCain: You’re going to have to ask me a question, ma’am.
Q: My question is “When are American citizens going to stop being terrorized? I had confronted Mr. Alex Itkin, who was a Russian …..
McCain: Ma’am, you’re going to have to - I apologize. I tell you what. I will have a member of my staff meet with you immediately after this town hall meeting. I will try to get all the facts and I will try to do whatever I can to assist you in this, obviously, what has been a terribly traumatic experience for you. I’ll have my staff sit down with you.
That’s pretty weak, eh?
Now, of course, many will be tempted to marginalize Ms. Skousen, because it’s clear that she was upset and more than a little unprepared.
But you haven’t met her. I have.
Her story about the trial isn’t made up, nor is the discrepancy between what the police officer (who filed the police report) said he saw and what Ms. Skousen claimed.
The third company she named besides Gazprom and Lukoil, namely Kairos International, is a real company, and was involved in Oil for Food in 2001 and 2002.
Ms. Skousen also added the following observations about Senator McCain during the course of her interrupted question:
McCain paced the floor, said repeatedly (with the mic away from his mouth) and indicated by his facial expressions that it was serious, would not let me finish the question, and repeatedly interrupted. He did not interrupt during a later question by another woman who had a lengthy statement followed by a question. He said to speak with one of his people, but there was no one around from his staff when I left, and only a few angry people from the county who gave me an icy look.
I only wish I had the time to fully vet the accuracy of the things I am learning, things I have not revealed because I can’t be sure of them. But you can bet that an Old Media determined to elect a faltering, flip-flopping, gaffe-generating Barack Obama will find the time.
The ultimate question for John McCain is simple: Though the full extent of the seriousness of the items discussed here is not known, how in the world can you even consider risking your one remaining shot at the highest office in the land by associating yourself with any of this?
Please. Don’t do it, John.
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UPDATE, July 23: The “Alex Itkin” mentioned in the second YouTube by Ms. Skousen is the President & CEO of Kairos on the company’s “About Us” page. Here’s his bio. Ms. Skousen’s ex-husband Samuel J. Skousen is shown as the company’s Automotive Consultant for the USA & Canada on that same “About Us” page. Kairos’s home page describes the company as “…. dedicated to establishing a conduit for cultural, economic, and business exchange between Russia, America, and Europe, facilitating relationships between government organizations, professional associations, corporations, and individual entrepreneurs.”
Clearly, taking action against Iran is more important than his investments. Your attack just backfired. And what does that womans problem have to do with the rep. President elect. nothing. Democrats would have us believe government would solve our problems, she must be one. Wanting government to solve her problem. You have scratched the surface of innuendos, nothing else. Also, the mormon church teaches us to love our children and spouse as Christ loved the church. If someone in the church abuses his children, they did not learn it at church so do not take a strike at the church, nice try though. lousy article.
Comment by Bill Fitzgerald — July 22, 2008 @ 8:58 pm
Clearly, taking action against Iran is more important than his investments. Your attack just backfired.
Quite the contrary, pal. If that’s the best you’ve got, it’s more like a bulls-eye.
And the reason you know that taking action against Iran is more important that money to Mitt Romney is exactly what? If it were so important, he and Bain wouldn’t be heavily invested in these Russian and Chinese companies who are doing 10s of billion of $ in business with Iran in the first place. Romney wants everyone else to divest from companies who do business with Iran — except for him, his family, and Bain. Watch the vid.
And what’s with the heavy Chinese investments (read: companies owned and controlled by the Chinese Communist government)?
Oh, and what part of “associated with the Oil for Food scandal” didn’t you understand?
John McCain should just stay the heck away from all of this.
And what does that womans problem have to do with the rep. President elect. nothing. Democrats would have us believe government would solve our problems, she must be one. Wanting government to solve her problem.
Funny, I just re-read the transcript. I didn’t hear her ask for the government to solve her problem. WHAT IS IN WHAT SHE SHE SAID that would make you think that?
The Romney family and business associates have extensive involvement in MI commerce and politics in that area. I have reason to believe that it may be rife with political cronyism and corruption.
Someone else will dig deep and find what’s there if Romney is selected, which is why John McCain should just stay the heck away from all of this.
Also, the mormon church teaches us to love our children and spouse as Christ loved the church. If someone in the church abuses his children, they did not learn it at church so do not take a strike at the church, nice try though. lousy article.
Go to these links and come back only when you’re done:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/expose/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1_9L8P6lSQ
http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2007/09/mitt-romney-robert-lichfield.php
http://www.postregister.com/scouts_honor/index.php
Now, what is it that all of these abusers have in common? I have reason to believe that there is a similar problem in Michigan.
The point again is that John McCain should just stay the heck away from all of this.
Comment by TBlumer — July 22, 2008 @ 10:29 pm
#1, you missed the point of Bain, savvy gun runners sell to both sides of the conflict to double their profits. The fact that Romney advocates (instigates) a position against Iran only means he is buttering up his salespitch for Iran’s desire to have more of what he sells. Bain is not about advancing a poltical agenda, it is about advancing a financial agenda.
Comment by dscott — July 23, 2008 @ 9:11 am
I’ll second that lousy article bit. Your article is poorly written with virtually no substance whatsoever. You keep throwing out bunk with the ” but wait, theres more ” or the ” this one has a suprise ” . A lot of great words, but no substance follows anything. What should we be waiting for when you exclaim, ” wait, theres more ” ? More of a lady that can’t ask a question ? Then she states her question and its this : When are American Citizens going to stop being terrorized ? LMAO. Sounded more like a bad divorce to me lady. Sorry, its just what I got out of your point.
The lady doesn’t help your argument one bit. To put it in your article destroys any point your trying to make.
Also, throwing stones at his religion doesn’t help you as well. People will look at that and laugh, as I did. To me , theres separation of Church and State. I’ll ask a mormon if I need to know about whether or not they teach child abuse. Actually, I’m smarter than that, I don’t need to ask. That child abuse bunk in your article seals the deal as well. Garbage. Why would you put that type of B.S. in there ? Immediately destroys any point your trying to make when you throw out stones like that. Especially when its a complete false statement. If your going to come with something false like that, come with something better and more believable.
Comment by Rhett — July 23, 2008 @ 7:52 pm
#4, and I’ll second that “lousy comment” bit.
Especially when it’s a complete false statement.
I challenge you to QUOTE a FALSE statement that I made.
The lady doesn’t help your argument one bit. To put it in your article destroys any point your trying to make.
She has a story to tell. That story matters. The people who needed to see it know that it matters, and you can rest assured that they are not “laughing.”
You obviously didn’t follow the related links.
As I told the first lousy commenter —
And again, the point is that John McCain should just stay the heck away from all of this.
Comment by TBlumer — July 23, 2008 @ 8:22 pm
Bill,
Did you notice the tab, “about us†on the Kairos site, and see the woman’s ex husband Samuel J. Skousen is listed? Are you trying to discredit, the lady? Seems there is more than†just†divorce issues. From what is posted on the thread, looks like some low level wanta bee political court personal, the Gaddis and McCrires families are mis- using their positions and throwing business their families’ way. Seems the Gaddis and McCrires need to be looked into. It also sounds like they have been harassing her and her kids.
Frankly, after seeing the name of Samuel Skousen on the list at Kairos International Development, I bet “that ladyâ€, has quite a bit to say. And what she has to say needs to be heard.
As, far as the Mormon Church, if they loved their families there would not be the high number of divorces which they have, nor would the level of cover up of sexual abuse. Falling back on the ‘we love our families’ is bunk and appears to be discounting an issue many former LDS people have raised regarding the issue of sexual abuse within the church as well as exposed the high levels of divorce, and incredible number of depression within the women of ‘the church’. If ‘they’ love their families so much, there would not be a high levels of depression.
Comment by Agnes — July 23, 2008 @ 10:37 pm
Oleg Ivanivich Lobov
Education: Ph.D in Civil Engineering
Honors: Honorary Builder of Russia, Honorary Academician of several Russian and foreign Academies.
1997-pres. Association of International Cooperation, Chairman.
1987-1997 Deputy Prime Minister of Russia;
Minister of Economy of Russia;
Secretary of the Security Council of Russia;
Special Presidential Envoy in Chechnya.
Wow, take a look at the names on that list. If the Romneys family is involved in this no way should they be near the White House! Chechnya? Special Presidential Envoy?
Comment by St. Petersburg — July 23, 2008 @ 11:38 pm
“Gazprom, one of the world’s largest companies, was a favorite target. Mr. Browder discovered that billions of dollars in gas had been sold at deeply discounted prices to shady intermediaries.â€
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/world/europe/24kremlin.html?pagewanted=2&hp
after reading this, one wonders if it was people in the government beating up on that poor lady and her kids.
New York times running the above article
No way should Mitt be near the White House.
Comment by sivlerbell — July 24, 2008 @ 12:47 am
Tblumer,
I didn’t follow your related links because one person in a church doesn’t speak for the entire church. Why would I judge a church because of 4 links ? I’m smarter than that. Whether it be Catholic, Mormon, Evangelical, etc… I don’t throw stones at a religion when I don’t know what they teach. You did. I don’t throw stones at a religion based on 1 person inside the religion. The Catholic, Mormon, etc or whatever church someone belongs to maybe perfect, but the people inside are never perfect. People don’t always follow or obey, so why judge somebody elses religion because of a church members mistake(s) ? Are you that gullible ?
Your false statments(yes, with an s)lies in the fact that you feel a gazillionaire is trying to make more profit off IRAN. What about Iran ? Where is there fault in all of this ? You never even approach it in your blog or compare anything. Again, no substance. Just biting on your part. That negates your point. When you throw out bites, it makes the column shady.
Also, your false statement lies with your thinking that there is a problem of child abuse in the mormon church.
Speculation, your honor. That will get tackled all….night….long…. Lionel Richie style.
Check out Agnes’ comment. Again , just throwing stones at a religion she probably knows nothing about. Actually, reading her comments, you can see she knows absolutely nothing. Blaming a church on depression, etc. LMAO !!! Lets get a Mormon in here high up or something and lets talk about divorce, child abuse, etc. Lets see if thats what they teach. Is that what you need ?
Gullible city here I come……
Hey, my Catholic neighbor just committed suicide. Agnes, I bet thats what they teach in the Catholic communities. Lets all do it !
Comment by Rhett — July 24, 2008 @ 12:42 pm
I didn’t follow your related links because one person in a church doesn’t speak for the entire church. Why would I judge a church because of 4 links?
Why should I respond to anything you’ve written if you won’t follow the links? I will anyway, but your shameless intellectual dishonesty is quite a sight.
Your false statments(yes, with an s) lies in the fact that ….
Again, I’m challenging you to QUOTE the false statement.
….. you feel a gazillionaire is trying to make more profit off IRAN. What about Iran? Where is there fault in all of this?
If you actually bothered to watch the first video, you’d see that it is MITT ROMNEY who says there’s a problem with investing in Iran and companies that do business with Iran, as he rails against pension funds and others who are doing that — while he, his wife, his family, and Bain are doing what he objects to. Zheesh.
…. your false statement lies with your thinking that there is a problem of child abuse in the mormon church.
I’m suggesting, based on MULTIPLE EXAMPLES at the links you refuse to visit, that there **may** be a child abuse problem in the Mormon Church and segments of the Mormon community. This is an OPINION. I’m allowed to have it, I’m allowed to express it, and in doing so I am saying NOTHING that is false. If you don’t like it, that’s fine, but if you care to defend your OPINION then you need to explain how you KNOW that the MULTIPLE instances found at the links you refuse to visit are aberrations and not tips of a bigger iceberg.
You clearly have no idea how foolish your last three paragraphs make you look.
Comment by TBlumer — July 24, 2008 @ 1:03 pm
Rhett, one thing is for sure you are no Rhett Butler, Butler wouldn’t put up with you.
There is a problem of child sexual abuse within the LDS church, the ward I attended had, three cases of sexual abuse of children, two were incest’s, one done by a church member, another a woman raped, and others in the surrounding stake to the Stake the Romney family grew up in and dad was Regional Representive.
I am Debbie in video. I sent one of your Mormons to prison for that, just that. I know exactly the methods used to cover up, and know exactly what is done to people who stand up to the people who ran the Bloomfield Hills stake and area stakes and wards.
Rhett, step out the ‘Gone with the Windâ€, you don’t belong in it, “September Dawn†is more your style.
Comment by debbie — July 24, 2008 @ 2:02 pm
Rhett you must be a horrible neighbor if they are dying to get away from you..
Comment by debbie — July 24, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
Rhett, here are some facts from you,— Scarlett
“Barna Research Group did a survery interview of 4000 Americans. Even though that’s not really a sizeable sample and it’s a random way of picking - they found that 29% of Baptists will end up in divorce (the highest in the nation) and Mormon have 24% while the average born-again is 27%. Atheists have like 21% or something”
“6 Jan, 1942 - First Councelor J. Reuben Clark tells reporter for Look Magazine: “Our divorces are piling up.” Church Historian’s Office in 1968 compiles divorce statistics since 1910 for temple marriages, “church civil” marriages, and “other civil” marriages. Although temple marriages have lowest divorce rate of the three categories, in 1910 there was one “temple divorce” for every 66 temple marriages performed that year., 1:41 in 1915, 1:34 in 1920, 1:27 in 1925, 1:30 in 1930, 1:23 in 1935, 1:27 in 1939, 1:17 in 1945, 1:31 in 1950, 1:30 in 1955, 1:19 in 1960 and 1965. Last rate for temple divorce is almost ten times higher than Utah’s civil divorce rate century earlier”
Comment by Scarlett — July 24, 2008 @ 2:16 pm
Rhett is sadly uninformed.
By Kent Ponder, Ph.D e-mail address: kponder@swcp.com
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/prozac.htm
“Utah residents currently use more antidepressant drugs, notably Prozac® (fluoxetine hydrochloride, introduced in 1987), than the residents of any other US state. This problem is clearly, closely and definitely linked to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Approximately 70% of Utahns are Mormons. Jim Jorgenson, director of pharmacy services for the University of Utah, confirmed that Utah has the highest percentage of anti-depressant use, hypothesizing that large families, larger in Utah than in other states, produce greater stress. (Large Utah families are primarily Mormon families).
The same LDS Church that works so well for many works very badly for many others, who become chronically depressed, especially women. Studies indicate that women suffer twice as much depression as men. These individuals then cope with their chronic mental pain and depression by using anti-depressant drugs and/or treatment by LDS therapists, who too often treat them ignorantly and counterproductively — though typically with such smug assurance that it borders on unintended arrogance.”
Comment by Debbie — July 24, 2008 @ 2:26 pm
So now your stating its a suggestion ? That there is a problem with child abuse in the mormon church ? Not a fact, right ? Suggestion and opinion. I think you’ve found your false statement kind sir. Just because you state an opinion doesn’t mean its a fact. It can and will be debated. It can be false. Your opinion isn’t a fact.
I followed the links. Again, why would I judge a church because of 4 links some blogger posted on his article ? Why would I have an opinion based on what only 4 links tell me ? Why wouldn’t I just go to some leader in there church and ask instead of believing some blog that states an opinion ? Why wouldn’t I just attend there church and see for myself if child abuse, depression, etc. is what they teach ?
There religion has 12 million or so members and your throwing up 4 links. Can’t we do that with EVERY religion ? Ok, there were 4 cases that linked the Catholic church to prostitution. Should I start believing there is a problem with prostitution in my church ? Should I start believing that this is what they teach ? I’m smarter than that Blumer.
We talked a little bit about substance. You throw out 4 links. Ok, great. Now get a leader of there church and quote him or something. Get them to add or debate and tell us why our ” opinion ” should be the same as yours. Get ahold of the Bible and the Book they believe in and quote to your readers where it claims they are pro-child abuse. Lets get ahold of there teachings and guide books and lets see for ourselves what these people are following. Lets find out before we throw stones. 4 links involving one or so of there members doesn’t mean its game for everybody else. Its pretty darn simple.
Do you really believe that the mormon church teaches child abuse ? Seriously, do you believe that ? Thats your opinion ? Or do you just believe there is a problem with it inside there church because of 4 links from the internet?
When you make opinions and suggestions like the ones in your article, it turns people away. Especially when you don’t show two sides of it and point your readers to the negative.
You can call me foolish. You can call me anything you want. You don’t know me or anything about me. Learn before you judge or gain an opinion on someone, something, or somebody. Just like you should do with the Mormons in this case.
Its funny, I actually agree with your point on the topic. ” McCain should just stay the heck away from all of this. ” McCain should stay far away from Romney. I just disagree with the substance inside the article. My reasoning is just different. I know there are people like you and Agnes out there that can’t separate church and state. So you’ll knock the guys religion if you have to and won’t vote for him because of something someone else inside the religion did. Its B.S. but it happens. Your not alone. There are others out there. That, my friend, is the reason McCain should stay away.
Comment by Rhett — July 24, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
The Mormon Church leadership does activity stop the reporting of child sexual abuse, attacks the victims to have them remain silent, attacks anyone who stands up to them, by using their membership and by using people who will do their bidding; and by their actions promotes abusive behaviors. You may be foolish, or in denial.
The members of the Catholic Church have become pro active, protested their church, and have forced their church to acknowledge the abuses within its organization, as well as exposing the abusers, the Mormon Church has no such organization forcing their church to confront the abuses within its organization, nor do I feel it possible due the extreme level of abuse they put someone through who dares to stand up to them. Your posts Rhett, are uninformed, or they are denial. Out of the four cases of sexual abuse in the ward I attended, only ONE case saw the court room, the others, because I stood up to them, the parents were told not to report and conformed, the Bishop would work with them and LDS social services, sad though, one of the people involved in child abuse WAS an LDS social worker, his wife pounded on car windows in the church parking lot, begged for help, and stated the ‘church’ told her they would take her kids away if she talked, and then promptly sent the family out of state to Ohio. I am in no mood to deal with people who want to spin, use people, or ones who allow others to be harmed.
Comment by debbie — July 24, 2008 @ 3:54 pm
I think you’ve found your false statement kind sir.
You are so out of it. Read the original (key word is bolded because you can’t seem to comprehend plain words):
“Appears” means I’m suggesting. Don’t you DARE try to turn it into anything more. An opinion is just that, an opinion.
4 links involving one or so of there (sic) members….
I’m finding it hard to believe that you went to the links.
ONE LINK was to the Post-Register series, which involved one guy who has admitted to molesting 24 children. There were seven chances to stop the guy. At least FIVE of those misses of them involved LDS officials, including very-high-ups — a lot more than just “one of their members”:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.postregister.com/scouts_honor/part2.php
#1 (Chance 1 of 7) — Stowell’s mother, the family’s LDS bishop and at least one Blackfoot police officer knew as early as 1988 that he had molested a child.
#2 (Chance 2 of 7) — Called as a witness in a victim’s lawsuit against the Scouts, (a Blackfoot man named) Scarborough said he knew about Stowell because a church bishop had told him Stowell abused a neighbor.
#3 (Chance 3 of 7) — But returned missionaries and former mission presidents have told the Post Register that Stowell should never have been cleared to serve once he confessed to his bishop that he molested a boy.
Parents and Scout leaders have said his status as a returned (LDS) missionary led them to trust Stowell.
….. the Blackfoot bishop who heard Stowell’s confession in 1988, said he trusted experts who said Stowell was cured.
(Note to Rhett: Not only was LDS negligent, but by allowing him to serve on a mission, it proactively aided and abetted the continuance of this person’s opportunities to abuse. Just because “experts” say a guy’s cured doesn’t mean you expose him to new opportunities.)
#4 (Chance 4 of 7) — Scarborough finally wrote in January 1994 to his faith’s prophet, seer and revelator: LDS church President Ezra Taft Benson.
….. the worldwide leadership of the church could have either ordered him to quit Scouting or ordered its Scout troops to put him on the ineligible volunteer list.
#5 (Chance 6 of 7) — In 1995, a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy of the LDS church, who also served on the Boy Scouts of America national board, asked the Grand Teton Council to investigate Brad Stowell.
….. “He stated that he had checked with the boy’s current LDS bishop, his past bishop, and that they had told him there was absolutely no indication that this young man was involved in any type of activity he was accused of … this was an outstanding young man.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Rhett, Stowell has admitted that he molested 24 children. Not “4 cases,” Rhett — 24. Multiple LDS members in at least two states (UT and ID) let him slide. Some of them are the type of “church leaders” you want me to quote. At some point, the suggestion that there “appears” to be a serious problem starts to look somewhat reasonable.
I don’t even have to look at the other three links. One was enough to debunk you.
Get a hold of the Bible and the Book they believe in and quote to your readers where it claims they are pro-child abuse. ….. Do you really believe that the mormon church teaches child abuse?
Y’know, you’re REALLY good at deceptive non-arguments.
Again, don’t you DARE put words in my mouth. I NEVER said that “the Bible and the Book …. are pro-child abuse” or that “the Mormon Church teaches child abuse,” and you know it. I said that there APPEARS to be a serious problem.
Is lying about what people said part of whatever belief system or religion you’re involved with?
If you can’t (really won’t) quote me accurately, I won’t let any more of your comments through. Your choice, pal.
Also see Debbie’s four comments above.
Comment by TBlumer — July 24, 2008 @ 4:11 pm
Debbie,
Your going to have to ask me a question, maam.
From BizzyBlog — Hey Rhett, now YOU’RE engaging in abuse.
Where did you learn that?
Comment by Rhett — July 24, 2008 @ 4:21 pm
Blumer,
So Stowell represents the entire Mormon Community ? All 12 million of them ?
Do you seriously believe that Mormons teach child abuse ?
Thanks for the compliments.
From BizzyBlog — Hey Rhett, you just hit the wall by putting words in my mouth again. I never said “that Mormons teach child abuse,” and you know it.
Having been warned, you’re still engaging in fundamentally dishonest argument, and future comments from you won’t be allowed through.
Also, See #20.
Comment by Rhett — July 24, 2008 @ 4:28 pm
So Stowell represents the entire Mormon Community? All 12 million of them?
The questions, Butler, are:
- whether the myriad LDS members and officials, including higher-ups in UT, who ignored and/or covered up for Stowell, represent a mindset in the Mormon community as to how these things are handled.
- if that mindset is prevalent, how many other Stowells are still out there?
Oh, and it’s not just Stowell. Robert Lichfield, Romney’s finance committe co-chair in Utah, ran a camp alleged to have engaged in serial abuse (this is at another of the links you either didn’t look at or failed to comprehend:
Comment by TBlumer — July 24, 2008 @ 5:13 pm
Rhett is obviously the sort of “show-me-the-proof” pseudo-objective type who 150 years ago formed “posses” to round up escaped slaves and publicly castigated them for making “unfounded charges” of abuse against their “lawful owners.” And then whipped them to teach them their place before returning them to their “lawful owners” where they belong. Just to maintain the natural order of things in the world.
Nice piece of work, you are, Rhett. Does your kind of abuser of fellow human creatures desperately pleading for a little justice do this work for cash, or for the sheer sadistic pleasure of it?
Send your posse after me, you cold-hearted bully. I salute Debbie for her unbelievable courage. May God give her the justice she deserves and send His posse after bounty hunters like you.
Comment by John Haskins — July 24, 2008 @ 5:24 pm
Rhett’s breed are sort of filling in for actual men in this country, as the real item is becoming more and more rare.
Isolating and attacking victims and whistleblowers is (as Debbie points out) exactly the way grossly dishonest and dysfunctional institutions and political, economic and religious mafias maintain their power to oppress while enriching themselves.
What better anecdotal proof of Debbie’s overall experience than people like Rhett trying to slice away at her to intimidate her into silence.
I wish I could stand beside her. My prayers will go out to Debbie, her son and any others caught in this maelstrom of perversion, greed and lust for power.
Comment by John Haskins — July 24, 2008 @ 5:38 pm
Rhett, is certainly not Rhett Butler from ‘Gone with the Windâ€, who’s character was man enough to take care of someone like you, Rhett. Rhett, you are not interested in addressing the issues of abuse within the LDS Church, any more than McCain was in hearing about, or having other aware of corruption within the ranks in Michigan, you are only interested in deflecting. The case of the Boy Scouts in Idaho, leadership of the Church knew, and knew for many years, but did nothing. Brave young boys took a stand. That is how it is in Mormonism, all talk about ‘values’, ‘families’, yet they attack the abused, attack the individuals who stand up to them. It is not that Rhett, does not understand, it is not that Rhett isn’t aware, it is because Rhett doesn’t care.
Comment by debbie — July 24, 2008 @ 7:39 pm
Rhett came in to defend the ‘church’ and there is no defense. The actions, the responses of the church are the same across the nation, from Ward to Ward (similar to a parish) and Stake to Stake, it is the same in England, it is the same in any country. http://www.voy.com/107476/628.html , leaving countless trusting victims, battered and damaged.
Last night, while reflecting on Rhetts posts, a troubling thought came to mind. Could some of Rhetts motivations in his post had been to draw attention away from the serious allegations of connections to former high level, and questionable Soviets?
McCain did not want to hear, have others understand, the seriousness of the issues surrounding, corruption within county officials, which has robbed and is robbing innocent people. Nor, the seriousness of having someone a heart beat away from the White House, who could not only has a deep and serious conflict of interest, but also may owe other nations, other powers for not only his wealth, but the wealth of his family.
The issues mentioned have deeply damaged my children, and me, and are driving force for me in a struggle for accountability and justice, however; there are issues involved in our plight, which not only effected me and my children personally, but can effect this nation — it can effect YOU.
A thank you to poster John Haskins for your kind concern and prayers.
Comment by debbie — July 25, 2008 @ 7:52 am